November 24, 1999
Texas Baptist Forum
Thanks, El Paso
___I want to express my thanks to El Paso Baptist Association for a successful Abrazando ("Arms Around") El Paso.
___All Texas Baptists join me in saying thank you to Director of Missions Lorenzo Peña, his staff and the churches of El Paso for their vision, leadership and hours of planning andhard work.
E-mail the editor at marvknox@baptiststandard.com
___The evangelism penetration prior to the annual session of the Baptist General Convention of Texas earlier this month demonstrates the heart of Texas Baptists.
___My heart is full as I think of the many evangelism activities sponsored by 42 El Paso Baptist Association churches.
___They hosted "fiesta" block parties, door-to-door witnessing and a multitude of servanthood evangelism events, where thousands of "Jesus" videos, gospel tracts and marked New Testaments were given away.
___I rejoice as I remember the many college and seminary students who came to share their faith with the lost.
___Several hundred church members, young and old, from El Paso and at least 31 other towns and cities came together to share with others how to have a personal relationship with Jesus.
___Testimonies from Abrazando El Paso still are coming in.
___The reports indicate 335 people recorded professions of faith in Christ from the activities on Saturday and the Hispanic rally (4,800 attended) on Sunday evening.
___Thank you, Texas Baptists, for your heart and passion for evangelism, and thank you, El Paso Baptist Association, for all you are doing to take the gospel to every home for the glory of our Lord.
___ Bailey Stone
___ BGCT evangelism director
___ Dallas
Change hearts
___We constantly are trying to change laws to make sure we can have prayer in schools and at football games. We should stop trying to change the law and begin changing our hearts.
___I don't tell my children to wait for the government to say it is all right to pray. I tell them to pray and show them by example.
___If we want prayer back in our country, all Christians should begin to pray, no matter where they are. Let's show our young people it is all right to pray. Walk down the aisle in church every Sunday to pray, pray over your food and get on your knees and pray before football games or sporting events.
___If you trust the government to say it's all right to pray, you trust the wrong people. Put your trust in the Lord.
___ Richard Ray
___ Centerville
Breakfast, anyone?
___The battles between Baptists remind me of breakfast.
___I love breakfast, especially with fried eggs. My first breakfast in heaven will include fried eggs, biscuits, bacon, sausage patties, hot coffee and homemade gravy.
___You prefer scrambled eggs. You have a cholesterol problem, so sausage and bacon are out. Biscuits and gravy are high in fat, so those are verboten. You may compromise and drink decaffeinated coffee with non-dairy creamer and artificial sweetener, but you are not remaining true to the "breakfasts of our fathers."
___So, because you prefer eggs scrambled, not fried, I have no option but to withdraw fellowship from you. Don't be surprised when we meet at the cafe if I don't speak. I must remain true to my convictions. We both enjoy eggs, but if you refuse to compromise your eggs-heresy, we must part ways.
___Does this seem ridiculous? The Baptist infighting, name-calling, character-assassination and worldly conduct are just as ridiculous. Both sides should read Joshua 5. Joshua asked the Captain of the Host, "Are you here to take sides?" The reply is ever-relevant. "Nope, I am here to take over."
___I pray Jesus Christ will once more "take over" all Baptists. May we learn to differentiate between biblical doctrine and societal customs.
___So, you like scrambled eggs? Well, brother, bring them on down to Venus, and I'll sit down with you in fellowship while I enjoy my fried eggs. Because after all, we do have eggs in common.
___ Don R. Ricks
___ Venus
200 'sinless' men?
___Two hundred fundamentalist "Christians" refused to eat with sinners at a meeting which Jerry Falwell hosted (Nov. 3). Please provide me with a list of these "sinless" men.
___In my lifetime, I've only worshiped one "sinless" man. Now, I find there could be as many as 200 more!
___Give me a break!
___ Sandra Womack
___ Houston
Neatly labeled
___When I read Dustin Evans' letter about older church members and younger prospects, (Nov 10) I felt as if I had been put in a slot neatly labeled "important, but ..."
___When I was giving my time, talent and tithes, I never once thought that I am no longer the future of the church or my country, simply because I have lived a certain number of years.
___I have one question to ask: At what age will the youth, that we are trying so diligently to reach, be told that they are no longer considered the future?
___ Billie Baum
___ Houston
Bothersome idea
___A recent letter advocates doing "whatever it takes" to reach young people (Nov. 10). The writer makes some very valid statements, but this mentality always has bothered me.
___"Whatever it takes" often leads to compromise of God's truth. "Whatever it takes" leads to a church full of babes in Christ who are spiritually malnourished because they don't receive anything but milk, and most of that watered down.
___The writer says he was "not saying that older people don't matter, but they are not the future of this country." That is very true. They are not the future, but they often are what is holding the churches together.
___I imagine that, without older people, most churches could be left closed on Wednesday nights and often on Sunday nights. Survey the "tithing" habits, and where does most of the financial support come from? Older people may not be the future of the church, but they are the support of the church.
___I enjoy praise choruses. I would not attend a church that sang all praise choruses and ignored the great hymns of faith. When the instrumental music of the church sounds exactly like the music of the world, we have gone too far in the direction of "whatever it takes."
___ Earl E. Newsom
___ Wylie
The right note
___Mark Wingfield's article on church music (Nov. 10) pinpoints the issue responsibly and factually. Basil Manly Jr.'s quote sounds like the remarks I hear often. How ironic!
___Our daughter graduated from Baylor University with a degree in music and has been trained classically. She enjoys classical and contemporary music. My husband and I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and loved the hymns from the Broadman Hymnal. We have enjoyed the 1956, 1975 and 1991 hymnals. I was there when children's choirs entered the scene and led many of them. Our son, a student of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, has his own music ministry--writing and performing his own contemporary music.
___The issue raised by Don Hustad, "Our church music schools are really wrestling with the question of how they're going to attract students and when they get there what they're going to teach them" is very appropriate. This is a wonderful "problem." It indicates we are in the "second golden age of English hymnody."
___God is working in the lives of our youth, churches and seminaries. It's exciting to see him leading and guiding future leaders--and sometimes changing the hearts of those who are now in places of leadership.
___ Jo Ann Goforth
___ College Station
Political garbage
___Has anyone grown tired of receiving political garbage in the mail cloaked behind an idea of putting on the full armor of God?
___When I see Christ in the New Testament, I don't see him waging a war against the religious establishment. I see living and giving hope among the poor and downtrodden. I don't see him organizing protests or sending flyers and "information" packets to everyone to make sure they were correct in their beliefs.
___Jesus commanded, "Repent" and "Follow me." We would do the people around us justice to heed those commands and stop trying to be the political hero of Christians today.
___ Chris Riley
___ Borger
Sweetest spirit
___"Lord, Listen to Your Children Praying" could have been a theme of the Baptist General Convention of Texas annual session last week.
___This was the sweetest spirit of any convention I have been to in my 20 years of full-time ministry.
___Each convention I'd been to was largely for business. There had not been but a token of emphasis on Scripture and message. Maybe I was not listening. Maybe God could not be heard through critical spirits.
___A couple of years ago, I felt the Effectiveness/ Efficiency report was unnecessary. Now I see its need. Texas is a whole other country in need of an unchanging message in an ever-changing method.
___I am grateful the Lord showed me how he was working, even through my stubborn will. Would you forgive my closed-mindedness?
___This time we did not fight but received an anointing of Holy Spirit power to "Put God's Word to Work." I am grateful to those who lead our BGCT with the heart of a servant. It is a joy to see what God is doing in Texas.
___ George A. Morrison III
___ Los Fresnos
A 'wise' convention
___At the recent meeting of Texas Baptists, the issue of women's submission was discussed. The debate, as recorded in the Baptist Standard (Nov. 17), follows: "(Bob) Newell, however, rose to speak against (Paul) Taylor's amendment, saying the desire to be scriptural is 'precisely the reason we want to reject this amendment. Scripture speaks of mutual submission, and the addition to the Baptist Faith & Message does not.'"
___The passage in Ephesians 5:24-25 says: "Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husband in every thing. Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it:"
___The key words used by Newell are "mutual submission." Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Does Christ submit to the church? I don't think so. Clearly, the mutual submission argument, though comfortable in the American culture, is not scriptural.
___I was mentored by a lady who taught me the principle of submission. Although not always easy, submission turned around my marriage. Obedience to God's word could save other marriages, too, if the church could take the stand to trust God.
___Texas Baptists may find themselves to be the "wise" talked of in Jeremiah 8:9: "The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the Lord: and what wisdom is in them?"
___ Pamela R. Smith
___ Temple
See past labels
___It's official now. The terms "liberal" and "conservative" as used within Southern Baptist life no longer have any meaning.
___Historically, in the broadest sense of the word, liberals are those who seek change, sometimes just for the sake of change. "Progressive" and "future" come to mind. In contrast, conservatives do not like change. "Traditional" and "good old days" come to mind.
___So, when Texas Baptists are accused of being "liberal" because of their endorsement of the 1963 Baptist Faith & Message (which is almost 40 years old) and "conservatives" want to change the BF&M (for the sake of change?), what are we to make of political labels?
___Jesus was right: We know a tree by its fruit. God, grant us the desire and ability to see past labels and into hearts.
___ Lynette Bowen
___ Plainview
Wishy-washy stance
___Congratulations, BGCT, on your rejection of Scripture and your lukewarm wishy-washy stance. I see now that the BGCT is more concerned about how the world views it than being obedient to the inerrant word of God.
___I am ashamed to be associated with Christians who are so concerned about the world's approval and peer pressure. I have had to stand red-faced and explain to my conservative Christian friends what happened, and to make it clear that it was not my doing.
___I came to the Southern Baptist Convention from a liberal denomination, and I know first hand the damage your "theology" can do. By the way, did anybody bother to "read" the statement? I affirm the family amendment because it represents the mind of God, not the mind of man!
___The BGCT will regret this politically correct move. Now I must consider mine. Lord, help us.
___ Bill English
___ Arlington
Follow Jesus & Paul
___I am happy about the decision the BGCT made not to affirm the 1998 addendum to the Baptist Faith & Message.
___Paige Patterson, Al Mohler and Richard Land are like the disciples (Luke 24:11; John 4:27) in that they are the ones who have trouble accepting what the Apostle Paul and especially Jesus teach--women are equals.
___Why do these men not cite Jesus? Jesus had women disciples (Luke 8:2-3); commissioned them as "ones sent" (apostoloi) to tell the others of his resurrection (John 20:17); and interacted with them as equals (John 4).
___Paul was no different. He stayed in the home of a man who had four daughters who preached (Acts 21:9); called women his fellow workers (Romans 16:3; Philippians 4:2-3); referred to a woman as "outstanding among the apostles" (Romans 16:7); and commended a woman as a "minister" (Romans 16:1), a term he used to refer to himself (1 Corinthians 3:5).
___In Ephesians, Paul preceded the passage about wives deferring to their husbands with the admonition that they defer to each other out of reverence to Christ. Ephesians 5:22 contains no verb in the critical Greek New Testament, which means verse 21 governs the rest of that passage. Metaphorically, the husband is the head of the wife (Ephesians 5:23), but just as the head cannot function without the body, the husband should not lead the family alone (1 Corinthians 11:11).
___ Cameron Rhoads
___ Fort Worth
Many will notice
___As a Texas Baptist, I feel I have been disenfranchised by statements of my brothers in Christ, Clyde Glazener and Charles Wade. Their use of the words "hammer" and "club" and such statements as "this will make the fundamentalists stand up and take notice" makes it obvious they have thrown down the mantel.
___Well, they are right.
___Many will take notice. If the BGCT continues to head toward forming their own denomination, separate from the SBC, they will discover that many churches will not follow. I do not know what our church will do, but I am saddened by the direction the BGCT is heading. I love the BGCT and my local association of pastors. They are the most dedicated people I have ever met, and I respect all of them.
___I do not know where this will lead, and we will not make any drastic changes at this time, but I feel the BGCT is moving closer to the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which will result in hundreds of churches moving the other direction. This is sad, because the BGCT was a great organization. I will continue to pray for the BGCT, and for Brothers Glazener and Wade as they are responsible not only to the Baptists in Texas but to our Lord Jesus Christ.
___ Stephen E. Joiner
___ Buffalo Gap
How much longer?
___I have been a Christian and a Baptist for 60 years. My late husband and I were reared in Baptist homes. His name was George W. Truett Latham. We learned Baptist doctrine in Baptist Training Union while it was still B.Y.P.U.
___After the Texas convention in El Paso, we messengers got immediate criticism from SBC leaders who have no authority over the state conventions. We do not work for them. They work for us. They have trashed traditional Baptist stances concerning priesthood of the believer, autonomy of local churches and conventions, separation of church and state, and the pastor as servant leader, not "ruler of the church."
___They say that, in affirming the 1963 Baptist Faith & Message without their 1998 revision, we ignore the Apostle Paul's teachings. Not so. They tend to pick and choose the parts of Paul's teachings that fit their preconceived beliefs and reject those that do not; else, why did they not add to their revision the parts about husbands loving their wives, mutual submission of spouses, obedience of children and slaves, taking a little wine for upset stomachs and not being hostile and quarrelsome toward fellow Christians?
___How much longer are we, in Texas, going to send large sums of money to the SBC when their leaders continue to malign and slander us?
___ Frankie R. Latham
___ Point Blank
Minutes of glory
___The next year or two may prove to be a time of quotable expressions. It seems the newly elected president of the BGCT, Clyde Glazener, has wasted no time in offering his spin on the way Texas Baptists ought to go.
___He is a most suitable successor to Russell Dilday, because both men have/will do their best to create greater tensions among Texas Baptists and the SBC.
___It would be a wonderful thing to have an elected president who could come in with a pastor's heart to minister with grace instead of pointed comments that are rooted in bitterness. Maybe someday soon our state convention will elect the cream of the crop in leadership instead of those who want their 15 minutes of glory and then quietly fade as very ineffective.
___ Tony Thornton
___ Kountze
Exciting times
___These are exciting times. I am thrilled to be a Baptist in Texas. The BGCT is in good hands. Knowing that good and faithful stewards will guide our mission holistically, compassionately and respecting our diversity means the best years ever are ahead of us.
___Following Jesus Christ, our sole authority, we will share the "best of times" amidst our too-often experienced "worst of times."
___ David Dinkins
___ Fort Worth
True Christian
___I want to thank you for clarifying that I am not a "true Baptist" (Nov. 17). You are correct, I am a true Christian who happens to find myself in agreement with those who come together in the denomination known as Southern Baptists.
___It is a sad day in Christian history when a group of Texas Baptists choose to be "Baptist" before being Christian.
___The leadership of the SBC is right on the mark when they state that the BGCT does not have a problem with them, rather it is with the Apostle Paul.
___And finally, as far as Russell Dilday and his remarks in reference to "pseudo-Baptists" being equated with Satan, I can only pray for him and the BGCT and follow the teachings of the Apostle Paul. "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 5:5).
___ Russell Hale
___ Temple
The real loser
___I find it interesting that the BGCT continually says that they are willing to work with anyone who wants to work with us. Yet I question whether they have any desire to work with the SBC or anyone else who is not willing to scratch their back.
___The sad note is that the SBC is no different. Neither side is actually willing to work with the other. Most are too concerned as to who is No. 1 and trying to out-do the other.
___Personally, I would rather them say what they really believe and then let's move on. Neither the BGCT nor the SBC is going to change their stance, and both continue to hurt and divide Texas.
___Who is the real loser in all of this?
___The people of Texas who have no relationship with our Lord Jesus.
___ Chuck Smith
___ Odem
Enough is enough
___I am pastor of a small Southern Baptist outpost church up in Michigan, but my roots are in Texas. And I am proud of those roots right now. Thank you, Baptists of Texas, forstanding up to say to the takeover crowd, saying, "Enough is enough."
___What the Falwells and Pattersons of this world overlook is that men were told to love their wives as Christ loved the church. And how was that? He washed her feet. He died for her. He became her Suffering Servant. He set aside all His royal standing to become that servant. In other words, he submitted himself to his bride.
___Yes, wives are to submit. And so are husbands! The submission is mutual, not one-sided. I wish these inerrant guys would be a little more inerrant with their use of Scripture!
___Tom Craighead
___Clio, Mich.
Submission models the Cross
___"Train the younger women ... to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will
___The church that doesn't teach that the wife should submit to her husband is inviting the watching world to ridicule (malign) the word of God. The world can accuse the church of preaching a gospel of liberation into selfishness, rather than a liberation into selflessness. Does the world really need more selfishness?
___The wife's submissive role is essential in the godly family. It is taught in four places by both Peter and Paul (Ephesians 5:22; Colossians 3:18; 1 Peter 3:1; Titus 2:5).
___The world must not be able to say of the church that we teach that spiritual liberation and physical liberation are the same. We can't explain the cross without talking about the sacrifice of self, yet mean something spiritual. Submission to one's husband on the part of the wife is clearly a must-do teaching for the church. It is essential for the proclamation of the gospel (1 Peter 3:1).
___Modeling the cross of Jesus is our call. The world may not be impressed with our preaching, but it will be impressed with our sacrifice. The Master Servant has said, "Whosoever will be great among you shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all" (Mark 10:43-44).
___ God's willing servants will rule over earthly kings. May God forgive our presumption.
___Jon Crosby
___Childress
God's word unchanging
___ For (Baptist General Convention of Texas President) Clyde Glazener to say the
___ I have always believed, still believe and always will believe that God's word is unchanging and never out of date.
___ Ed Hornick
___ Rainbow
Omitted description of husband
___ My heart aches over the deception presented to people both worldwide and to those who attended and voted at the Baptist General Convention of Texas' El Paso session. We have been encouraged to disregard the Baptist Faith & Message Article 18. I am wondering
___ Today's family is under attack by Satan, and the article was meant to make a concise, clear statement on the family as found in the Scripture. However, the media and others promoting separation from the Southern Baptist Conventioin have shortened the article even further to quote only "a wife shall submit herself graciously to her husband." In doing this, the description of what that "husband" is has been completely omitted. That "husband" is one who loves his wife just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy. The description of that "husband" is found in Article 18, as well as in God's word in Ephesians 5:22-30 and Colossians 3:18-19. Other Scripture references are listed at the end of the disputed article.
___ I also find in my Bible warnings of what will happen to those who add to or take from God's word. Read the last page of Revelation, or even Moses' warnings to his people from God.
___ Betty McEver
___ Temple
Creedalism is folly
___ The inflammatory quotations by Paige Patterson, Al Mohler, et al disparaging the Baptist General Convention of Texas' affirmation of the 1963 Baptist Faith & Message are
___ The inclusion of doctrinal interpretations within the document are directly contrary to the principle of the priesthood of the believer and are meant to make it into a de facto creed, which, point by point, will have to be explicitly affirmed by denominational employees.
___ The BGCT's action has nothing to do with the "correct" biblical interpretation of family relationships, but simply leaves the working out of those relationships to the Holy Spirit's guidance of each Christian family.
___ The Baptist Faith & Message must be inclusive, expressing our common faith, and not made divisive by cluttering it with interpretations that are best left to the individual conscience. What would have happened if our predecessors had included statements on closed communion or dispensationalism when these ideas were widely held? They were wiser than today's leadership, knowing that human interpretations of Scripture change with time, but God and his word are immutable!
___ May God help the SBC to recognize the travesties that have plagued the church through the centuries due to creedalism and lead them to reject the folly of adding narrow and divisive interpretations.
___ Dolan McKnight
___ Richardson
Where's the beef?
___If all of the Holy Bible is true and declared to be without error (I believe it is true and
___Therefore, I hold in suspect the beloved counselor who begins to add "buts": "It is all true but…" and "buts" continue until there is no beef left in the burger. Granting exceptions ("buts") can rekindle addictions to subjective qualifiers similar to the effect of one drink of alcohol to the AA practicioner.
___Otis Patrick
___ Fort Worth
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